Re: [Ag Meinungsfindungstool] [MG] Pirate Party Germany - "Opinion Forming Tool" (Working Group) - Next Meeting

[Alexander Praetorius <citizen AT serapath.de>]

On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Michael Allan <mike AT zelea.com> wrote:

The OVN is defunct I'm afraid.  It never had enough participants to
get started.

<alex>

Hello Michael.
It's no problem that the OVN is defunct. It's about the concept which is of interest to us.
Would be great if someone could explain the idea behind it.
</alex>

 

Thomas says your working group is about interconnecting different
tools, which interests me.  I'm looking at one of your diagrams:
http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/wiki/images/3/30/DSFS-ConceptualOverview-A.jpg

                   --->

                Discussion
                  media          |
               /          \      |  information flow (clockwise)
              /            \     V
             /              \
            /                \

  Information  ------------   Decision
    media **                   media
                  <---


If I were able to help at some point, it would probably be on tooling
for the information media (bottom left).  That's where I would place
Votorola.

<alex>

That's interesting, because of the "DIFF Functionality", i would intuitively have placed Votorola at the top center.
I thought it is a discussion system that could eventually evolve into a decision system that we have in mind.

Currently, when we talk about "decision system", we mean "resolution system", something that generates a snapshot in time of people opinion, using a voting method like "range voting, approval voting, schulze method, whatever..." ... while the discussion goes on in the background trying to reach consensus.

The "decicion system" a.k.a "resolution system" on the other hand does not change a proposal once it has been submitted to it.
It also tries to incorporate all the legal rules that are necessary in order to comply with the political parties act.

In the long run, it might be possible, that the "discussion system" will make the "decision system" completely irrelevant, but until then, we need one.
</alex>

 

Votorola is designed to support discussion aimed at mutual
understanding and consensus, which it does by providing a kind of
social-structural backbone. **  (I used to think of LiquidFeedback as
inhabiting roughly the same niche, but now I realize the two have
diverged to the point where it no longer makes sense to compare them.)
But although Votorola is designed to support discussion, it is not a
discussion medium itself.  It is separate.

<alex>
What about the "Diff Functionality"?
So did you ever think of trying to incorporate "Vilfredo goes to athens" as a micro discussion mechanism where votorola has none?
Will Votorola offer plugins to enable implementing different discussion mediums?
Could you give a presentation for the pirate party working group?

Thomas will probably give one, not tomorrow, but the next monday after tomorrow.
Maybe you could talk to Thomas and eventually you could give a complementary talk thats more about the technical details.

 

I joined your list.  I hope to use a translator to learn more about
your plans.  (I don't intend to post except in English cross-threads
such as this.)


  * I couldn't download the audio.  bayfiles.com served me a Windows
    exe for this purpose, which froze on my old XP box.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/69lj47

 

 ** "Information media" or "information system" is perhaps not a good
    name for this category.  All three corners of the triangle are
    concerned with informational content.

Maybe.
So could you make suggestions for a better name? :-)


 

Thanks again,

--
Michael Allan

Toronto, +1 416-699-9528
http://zelea.com/


marc said:
> Just to clarify some confusion on time zones:
>
> The next mumble session is coming on Monday, 8th October 2012 at 9.30pm
> (CET+1, that's UTC+2).
> In this session Ronald Grindle gives us a deep insight into his concept of
> the "Architecture of a Democracy 2.0".
>
> Also on Monday our working group AG MFT (short for AG Meinungsfindungstool)
> has its regular meeting shorten from 9pm to 9.30pm. This is just to make
> some necessary decisions on our conceptual papers.
>
> We are looking forward to hearing you on mumble!
>
> Server: mumble.piratenpartei-nrw.de
> Port: 64738 (standard)
> User: <choose any alias>
> Password: none
> Chat Room: Bund / Arbeitsgemeinschaften / Technik(IT) /AG
> Meinungsfindungstool
>
> Cheers
> marc
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alexander Praetorius
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 6:37 PM
> To: Metagovernment Project ; info AT liqd.net ; Michael Allan ; conseo ; Thomas
> von der Elbe ; Daniel Reichert ; AG Liquid Democracy ; Piraten AG
> Meinungsfindungstool ; info AT interaktive-demokratie.org ;
> adhocracy-dev AT lists.liqd.net ; justus_wingert AT web.de
> Subject: [AG Liquid Democracy] Pirate Party Germany - "Opinion Forming
> Tool"(Working Group) - Next Meeting
>
> To whom it may concern,
>
>
> (Who wants What?)
> the Pirate Party Germany, in particular the working group "AG
> Meinungsfindungstool" has invited developers and people interested in the
> topic, to join forces in a mumble conference.
>
>
> THE PAST - (What happened?):
>
> Our initial Meeting with international developers on  the 3rd of October
> 2012 was very successful.
> A. After a short round of introductions to each attendee, Slash gave a short
> overview of the current status of our working group 'AG
> Meinungsfindungstool': he expressed, that from our point of view, the
> process of decision-making can be seperated into three interacting systems:
> 1. Information System,
> 2. Discussion System and
> 3. Decision System.
> => Our working group deals with all questions regarding the Discussion
> System.
> B. Then we talked about the intention of coming together and the current
> problems we face with Liquid Feedback and other tools of this genre.
> C. Our first international Speaker was "Pietro Speroni di Fenizio" and he
> informed our working group about a tool called "Vilfredo goes to Athens".
> The in-depth presentation took its time, but it inspired the working group
> and was defenitly worth it. If you like to learn more about it and our first
> meeting as a whole, you can download the audio here:
>
> http://bayfiles.com/file/mL53/GDbWPZ/Mumble-2012-10-01-21-05-58-mumble.piratenpartei-nrw.de-Mixdown.mp3
>
> The notes to the session can be found here:
> http://meinungsfindungstool.piratenpad.de/2012-10-03-Notizen
>
>
>
> THE FUTURE - (Waht's next?):
> Because this event (planned as a one timer), was so inspiring and
> successfull, we decided to host a series of meetings, where people from
> outside can share their thoughts on the matter.
>
> We plan to have a single session for each concept or idea to be presented.
> The main intention is to get closer in touch with different projects and
> learn more about other concepts and iedeas.
> It doesnt have to be a software prototyp, it could also be a concept or
> anything that falls into the scope of our "AG Meinungsfindungstool"
> (Meinungsfindungtstool = Opinion Forming Tool)
> In every meeting, there will be a speaker that will present his approach, or
> the approach of the developer team he's part of.
> If you know people who develop tools or concepts or have something to say in
> the general matter, please feel free to forward this email to them, so they
> might contact us.
>
> - When?
> => Our next Meeting will probably take place on upcoming monday (October
> 8th).
> The normal meetings of our working group take place on mondays 8pm (+2 UTC),
> but we'll send one doodle for each week now, as long as we're hosting the
> series in order to find the best possible time slot.
> http://doodle.com/mf3iccnhvc2r2rvm#table (It doesnt have to be monday, but
> mondays are preferred by our working group)
>
>
> - Where?
> http://mumble.sourceforge.net/
> http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/NRW:Mumble-Server
>
> Server: mumble.piratenpartei-nrw.de
> Port: 64738 (standard)
> User: beliebig
> Passwort: keins
> Raum: Bund / Arbeitsgemeinschaften / Technik(IT) /AG Meinungsfindungstool
>
>
> - What?
> The next session is coming on Monday, 8th October 2012 at 9.30pm (CET+2). In
> this session Ronald Grindle is giving us a deep inside into his concept of
> "Architecture of a Democracy 2.0".
> http://meinungsfindungstool.piratenpad.de/NextMumbleAgenda
> Another future Speaker, probably "Thomas von der Elbe", will speak about
> "Votorola".
> We'd love to have speakers who can talk about "Liquid Feedback?" or
> "Adhocracy?" too. We also would like to learn about the concept of "FGA
> (Federated General Assembly)" and "OVN (Open Voting Network)". There are
> hundreds of tools and concepts all over the world beeing currently developed
> and within the scope of our working group. If you know some of those
> brilliant tools or ideas that are already out there somewhere, or if you
> know about concepts that fall into the scope of our working group or are
> somehow related, then please feel free to share this email and contact us.
>
>
>
> If you'd like to learn more about us - currently only available in german
> language:
> - in General: https://wiki.piratenpartei.de/AG-Meinungsfindungstool
> - in Particular:
> http://meinungsfindungstool.piratenpad.de/Anforderungsanalyse-Grundidee
>
> If you have any queries, don't hesitate to contact our working group!
> https://service.piratenpartei.de/listinfo/ag-meinungsfindungstool
>
>
>
> Thank you very much for your attention
>
> --
>
>
> Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> ***********************************************
> Alexander Praetorius
> Rappstraße 13
> D - 60318 Frankfurt am Main
> Germany
> [skype] alexander.praetorius
> [mail] mailto:alexander.praetorius AT serapath.de
> [web] http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath
> ***********************************************

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--

Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen

***********************************************

Alexander Praetorius

Rappstraße 13

D - 60318 Frankfurt am Main

Germany

[skype] alexander.praetorius

[mail] citizen AT serapath.de

[web] http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath 

***********************************************