[Ag Meinungsfindungstool] Critique of Votorola

[Michael Allan <mike AT zelea.com>]

Hi Henri, (cc Votorola)

> we can go on cross-posting. I have not the smallest problem with
> that.

I'm worried others might object.  We both seem to be in the AGM list,
so I reply here.  (Please excuse our English, folks.)

> I checked through your web pages again. I still like your graphics,
> but I did not find much on democracy.

But did you read the text, too?  At what point did you feel it was
disconnected from democracy?
http://zelea.com/project/votorola/home.html

> Votorola is said to be a Liquid Democracy application. ...

I don't know what "liquid democracy" means.  I think it's a German
buzzword.  I often hear it in connection with LiquidFeedback, but
LiquidFeedback and Votorola are very different.  I suspect Votorola
has nothing to do with liquid democracy.

> So how can you build a liquid transitive decision system with a
> decentralized version of democracy? How do you build a discussion
> system for such? And why is a representative, decentralized,
> program-based, market democracy the democracy of the future?
> 
> I put an awful lot of attributes in the last sentence. And perhaps
> you may get a small idea of what I am talking about: You have no
> idea about democracy, yet.

But you seem to be unfamiliar with my ideas.  Certainly I don't think
of Votorola as a "liquid" decision system.  It's not a decision system
of any kind.

I still don't see what you think is wrong with Votorola.  You appear
to be thinking of your own design for a "market democracy", but that
would be a separate topic, of course.

-- 
Mike Allan

Toronto, +1 416-699-9528
http://zelea.com/


Henri Nathanson said:
> Hi Mike,
> 
> we can go on cross-posting. I have not the smallest problem with that.
> 
> I checked through your web pages again. I still like your graphics, but I
> did not find much on democracy.
> 
> Votorola is said to be a Liquid Democracy application. Well, Liquid
> Democracy is all non-sense. Sorry, to say that. Regarding discussion
> systems, we may talk about that after we fix the core problem. Such is with
> decision systems. To say with democracy.
> 
> In the german language we have a term "Grundlagenforschung". We have to get
> the basics, before we start with anything else. As I said before, the
> fundamentals of democracy are laid by two forms of it. A centralized and a
> decentralized version. They are both fairly known. The latter one is less
> known, though. It works with programs. Which can be seens as a stack of
> proposals. But it does not have proposals any more. Not at all. There is a
> single ruling person, which more or less just publishes its decisions.
> 
> So how can you build a liquid transitive decision system with a
> decentralized version of democracy? How do you build a discussion system
> for such? And why is a representative, decentralized, program-based, market
> democracy the democracy of the future?
> 
> I put an awful lot of attributes in the last sentence. And perhaps you may
> get a small idea of what I am talking about: You have no idea about
> democracy, yet.
> 
> Grab yourself a pen and a paper, put up an amount of smilies voluntarily on
> the paper, draw a line around two of such smilies to form a first group,
> and ask yourself why such group can dominate all others? That is
> decentralized dominance. Unite et impera. Ask yourself, what happens, if
> such group-buildings goes on. What ideal structures come up? Work with
> contracts to get a civilized version. And you are fit with democracy.
> 
> Regards
> Henri
> 
> 
> 2014-06-20 10:31 GMT+02:00 Michael Allan <mike AT zelea.com>:
> > Henri Nathanson said:
> > > I checked out Michals stuff (Votorola?) some time ago. Some nice
> > > graphics, but I did not see much interesting thoughts on democracy.
> >
> > You're looking at the pictures, Henri, but are you reading the text?
> >
> > Where do you get bored?  Or fail to see the connection with democracy?
> > I'd be happy to answer your critique if you could be more specific.
> >
> > Probably a single list would be better for this.  I'm in these lists:
> > http://zelea.com/.mutt/
> >
> > Mike