Re: [Ag Meinungsfindungstool] [Liquid democracy international] Anybody checked out placeavote.com?

[Martin Stolze <pirate.martin AT stolze.cc>]

Hi Mike,
Please excuse the intonation of my compatriot. The climate among the pirates in Europe is one where insult is frequently added to injury that bears a peculiar roughness. Take it as a raw insight ;)

I fully agree with your statement:

The step-wise plans *aren't* identified,
laid out side by side, and reasonably discussed.  So, should we start
doing that?  Would it be a reasonable way forward at this juncture?

I have not the slightest clue. But I agree that we need structure.

bottling up opinion

I can't see that, but you can read sentiments from the relationships of different currency-token systems to each other. Think of it like spreads or synthetic credit default swaps that provide information on the underlying.

I don't think of it as votes anymore. I have no term for it but simply try to describe it with words from my field of expertise. The base of all is ‘trust’. Currency, or maybe currency-tokens, translate this trust. Two actors can only direct their interactions into the future if trust is established. We currently help ourselves with crotches like votes or currencies like €, $, etc. At its core are future expectations. I encourage you to read Satoshis original paper on BTC with this in mind.

The technical breakthrough is trustless transaction. It’s the steam engine of the 21th century. It took me more than 2 years including this discussion to grasp the tip of the iceberg. Liquid democracy as we describe it is just a feature of Blockchain technology. Also consider that a successful Blockchain implementation with communication/messaging (like TCP/IP), availability (‘(cloud)storage’) and computation/application (like EC2+turing completeness) can hardly coexist with current ‘Trust-Monopolies’. Thinking of elections as we know them today is therefore not helpful.

I will spawn your approach towards structure on the “liquid-democracy-international AT llistes.pirata.cat” list and get back to you at a later point.

Currently more worldly matters are pressing and consume my cognitive bandwidth. I will not be able to discuss this further anytime soon.

I believe this discussion is over. Thanks and sorry for the cross posts.
--Martin

PS Henri, I still believe your approach is actually good and I think you have quite an edge especially because of your hands on focus on state level. I intend to get back to you as well.

On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 11:39 AM, Henri Nathanson <henri.nathanson AT gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mike,

I will not leave this thread. But better finish the discussion of Votorola. I checked again your text. And yes, besides my problems to grab its content, Votorola seems to be no decision system. I got the idea of it being a liquid democracy system from here http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Liquid_Democracy/Votorola

I am not much interested in opinion or discussion systems. And Votorola - or your output - seems rather strange to me. There is already enough chaos within decision systems. Which are much more important. And which have to be done first.

You should start spending your time with decisions systems. Ask yourself why you vote in favour of a proposal, or not? Is there a binary human thinking here? Yes or no? Or is there a more precise valuation of a proposal beneath? E.g. 324 Dollars and 23 Cents? Is democracy an economical problem after all?

I will probably leave the PP mailings lists in the near future. I figure it's not the place to talk about democracy in a senseful manner. The economic theory discusses the subject in an area called Public Choice much more rationally and effectively. In Germany we even have a newly established party, established by such economic professors, which did outrun the Pirate Party in no time.

Unfair to say so. Them professors success did hardly come by a better understanding of democracy. But they are closer to it anyways. Much closer. And even though they have no efforts in evolving democracy, it seems like pity to me, talking democracy to the Pirate Party.

Henri

2014-06-21 5:23 GMT+02:00 Michael Allan <mike AT zelea.com>:

Henri Nathanson said:
> Hi Mike, we can go on cross-posting...

But I'm worried others might object.  We both seem to be in the AGM
list, so please lets discuss your critique of Votorola there:
https://service.piratenpartei.de/pipermail/ag-meinungsfindungstool/2014-June/002707.html

_______________________________________________
liquid-democracy-international mailing list
liquid-democracy-international AT llistes.pirata.cat
https://xifrat.pirata.cat/gestors/mailman/listinfo/liquid-democracy-international