Re: [Ag Meinungsfindungstool] [pp.int.general] [AG Liquid Democracy] Anybody checked out placeavote.com?

[Dario Castañé <dario AT pirata.cat>]

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Around this idea there is Ethereum https://www.ethereum.org/ It is a
blockchain-based platform, not a voting system.

Anyway, about AgoraVoting (not Ethereum) currently there is only
non-bitcoin-based working version of it, which allows everything
Muriel said.

It is the most advanced free software direct/liquid democracy software
available currently. Please, check it and consider it as base for any
future pirate voting system ;)

In Spain, from Pirate Confederacy, we already used it for a referendum
with multiple questions with very good results (although without
delegation).

Salut,
Dario

El 03/06/2014 0:59, Martin Stolze escribió:
> Thanks Muriel, I believe blockchain based is something was floating
> around on reddit in this respect as well. I bet they are just
> forking this! It looks very promising and somebody spent even some
> time on documenting the api :) I am signed! Gracies Martin
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Muriel Rovira Esteva
> <muriel AT pirata.cat <mailto:muriel AT pirata.cat>> wrote:
> 
> Dear Jacob and Martin,
> 
> I am no expert, so I am not 100% sure of the terms, bus AFAIK
> Agora Voting allows traceability and anonymity simultaneously: 
> https://blog.agoravoting.com/index.php/2013/11/28/a-bitcoin-based-completely-distributed-voting-system/
>
>  I also allows for delegation. And I think it allows for the 
> delegates to have a public vote while still letting non delegates
> to cast a secret vote. But you can also choose to have everything 
> public if you prefer.
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Muriel
> 
> 
> 2014-06-02 23:53 GMT+02:00 Martin Stolze <pirate.martin AT stolze.cc 
> <mailto:pirate.martin AT stolze.cc>>:
> 
> ???Hello Friend, Thanks for taking the time to elaborate on the
> details. I agree that this got a bit out of hand on the different
> mailing list and it?s also my last comment.
> 
> As for the ?big problems?. I am admittedly quite smug in that I 
> only see them as technicalities somebody smarter than I will solve.
> I tend to favor pragmatic approaches. I don't want to discourage
> anybody and I have the utmost respect for everybody who is putting
> time and effort into any of the mentioned projects.
> 
> As far as I understand it placetovote uses a pragmatic approach of
> identifying people via social security details with a bit of 
> private-public key encryption probably at a too high expense of 
> anonymity for our emacs fraction. Delegation, again another
> technicality. One can probably easily hack around it like you can
> today via postal ballot. It?s just not done more widely because
> elections are just too rare and unspecific.
> 
> They are aiming at the primaries in the US, I don't see why they 
> couldn't take some of us on board and branch it off to Europe, 
> Canada, the local tennis club, ? with different specs.
> 
> My intention was really to find somebody who is hooked on the guys
> in the states. I am under no illusion that they will probably fail
> and drop it. However, I believe they are better in execution. I
> personally put an extreme high premium on execution. You'll hate me
> for it but I do believe that a solution that originates in the US
> has a much higher chance of being recognized, supported and
> accepted, unfortunately nothing trumps the immense concentration of
> capital and talent that is available there. I? ?mean? ?this? ?
> project? ?is just a sidekick of 59daysofcode.com
> <http://59daysofcode.com> and I do belive buying those kids would
> be better investmetn then, let's say, sending out another round of
> paper inviations to the GA, damn, our
> pirate-party-micky-mouse-club-membership-cards were probably more
> expensive :) - It was more than 590 days ago when I looked into the
> Liquid Feedback last time and I didn't notice a difference since.
> 
> In fact, back in 2012 part of me thought that any pirate politian
> will just abuse his mandate to make it a 4 year coding assignment
> and disfranchise every possible resource to catapult the movement
> into a semi-operational beta status. -Wrong judgment on my end. My
> issue is that I can?t see much traction for anything that is 
> currently being developed indigenously. It mesmerizes me that 
> pirates of all people actually do such work on a local level that
> is so clearly something that should be developed internationally.
> 
> If you hear social network you think Facebook, if you hear video 
> playback you think ?VLC? if you hear digital democracy you think 
> ...? let me know. I would appreciate a pointer if you come across 
> something that has a serious chance.
> 
> Best wishes Martin?
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 6:37 PM, Jacob Kanev <j_kanev AT arcor.de 
> <mailto:j_kanev AT arcor.de>> wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear Martin,
> 
> regarding voting systems there are currently some big problems that
> still have to be solved.
> 
> (1) Traceability vs. Anonymity. In normal elections you can vote
> anonymously (i.e. no-one knows who it actually was that ticked that
> box) and the election is traceable, at least to the point that
> tampering of the system would get noticed by the human observers. 
> In an online system this is not possible. You have an either-or
> relation. Either the system is traceable, but then it must be
> traceble back to the actual persons who did the voting. Or it
> allows for anonymous voting, but then traceability flies out the
> window and you end up with a system that is prone to manipulation. 
> I don't know what placeavote.com <http://placeavote.com> have done
> in this respect and I enrole to find out, so I cannot judge here.
> 
> (2) Delegations One single person cannot vote on all little minor
> special issues that arise in a democracy. Hence the idea of being 
> able to delegate single votes to single persons (there are also
> many different ideas and ways of doing this). I quite like the
> idea, but to my suprise there are many people who don't. I guess a
> system without delegations won't work, and a system with
> delegations might have difficulty taking off, cause so quite a few
> people are opposed to it. This question first has to be solved to
> everybody's agreement.
> 
> But I guess you know this already.
> 
> As for qKonsens, it tries to tackle the easy-vs.-complex problem
> you mention. You can have different views on each question
> (depending on whether you just want to spend a first glance or read
> into it a bit), and the voting system is simple -- you click a
> "++", "+", "0", "-" or "--" button, much like having "like" and
> "dislike" buttons. This is much like your onion idea.
> 
> That said, I don't see a nation-wide implementation of any of these
> yet. Placeavote is a nice try, but I dought they will gain much
> momentum. Would be interesing to see how they solved (1) and (2)
> from above. The other tools are intra-German-Pirate-party tools
> used for research and testing. qKonsens is in its proof of concept
> phase (aka we're still implementing), noddr is a one-person
> project without much resonance otherwise. Even the German pirate's 
> party-wide LQFB implementation is not accepted by the majority of
> the party members (delegations may be the main problem here).
> 
> So, I think best you can do is listen in on the liquid-democracy
> and the meinungsfindungs-tool teams and possibly join their
> discussions. The meinungsfindungstool people have quite a lively
> email discussion, also discussing implementations and ideas by
> other people.
> 
> Hope I could help, lots of regards, Jacob.
> 
> P.S.: Sorry for doing cross-list posts. This was my last one, and I
> apologize.
> 
> 
> On Monday 02 June 2014 11:46:43 Martin Stolze wrote:
>> Hey Jacob, Thanks a lot that is one exciting idea! I try to look
>> at
> approaches mostly
>> under the aspect of whether they can work and create
> traction. There are a
>> few criteria that I found significant. Simplicity, is the
> most important of
>> them. Think about limesurvey, the only tool producing any
> meaningful
>> feedback as of now. Anything "Meinungsfindungstool" is like 10
>> Degrees more
> complex and for
>> that it seems to be not implementable right now. - And who
> speaks German
>> anyway? ;)
>> 
>> I like to think of it like layers of an onion. The first
> layer must be very
>> simple, not even as complex as ?yes? or ?no?. Just a
> simple "like/+1" may
>> suffice. This and a focus on seamless integration to
> wherever people spend
>> their time must be the priority. Once somebody is hooked
> we can go down the
>> rabbit whole and do all the ?Meinungsfindung?. - It?s what I like
>> about Silicon Valley and placeavote.com
> <http://placeavote.com>, they keep it
>> simple and deliver something appealing, the rest is
> iteration. In contrast,
>> udeci.de <http://udeci.de> seems to take the opposite
> approach.
>> 
>> Best Regards Martin
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Jacob Kanev
> <j_kanev AT arcor.de <mailto:j_kanev AT arcor.de>> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi Martin,
>>> 
>>> you might also want to connect with the people from our "AG 
>>> Meinungsfindungstool" [1]. They're busy implementing
> something called
>>> qKonsens, an online system that combines voting and
> discussing.
>>> 
>>> I'm not sure how far it is, I haven't followed the
> discussion in detail,
>>> but as far as I can see some good ideas have met some
> programmers.
>>> 
>>> Lots of regards, Jacob.
>>> 
>>> [1] ag-meinungsfindungstool AT lists.piratenpartei.de
> <mailto:ag-meinungsfindungstool AT lists.piratenpartei.de>
>>> 
>>> On Sunday 01 June 2014 20:49:39 Martin Stolze wrote:
>>>> ?? Hi Together, I keep arguing that a lack of infrastructure
>>>> is
> actually our biggest
>>>> challenge. I guess, by now, it is safe to say that we
> don't actually have
>>>> the capacity to build something ample ourselves
> (Liquid Feedback, shitty
>>>> mailing lists, limesurvey you name it). The way I see
> it is that we
>>> simply
>>>> don't manage to activate the talent that would be
> necessary to develop
>>>> something pioneering. All the good ideas and
> innovations coupled with our
>>>> lofty idealism is worth nothing if nobody is pouring
> them into Java or
>>> PHP.
>>>> 
>>>> The guys at placeavote.com <http://placeavote.com>
> have been gone through the news as they try
>>> to
>>>> shoehorn direct democracy into any form of electoral
> system by means of
>>>> levering it out and replacing politicians with proxies
> that only relay
>>>> decisions made by the corresponding constituency.
>>>> 
>>>> Of course implementation, especially in the US, is
> highly unlikely.
>>> However
>>>> using it at least internally to a certain degree or
> forking it a little
>>> can
>>>> be a chance for us to move out of the technological
> middle ages that we
>>> are
>>>> stuck in.
>>>> 
>>>> It also seems not to be open source (yet?) but I am
> thinking more along
>>> the
>>>> lines of sweet-talking the guys behind it into working
> for us as some
>>> kind
>>>> of software consultants, maybe we can flatter them
> with a bit of the cash
>>>> that should come our way in form of election refunds? ? :)?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> What do you think?
>>> 
>>> -- ____________________________ Pungenday, 7th of Confusion,
>>> 3180. jacob kanev twitter: @j_kanev jabber:
>>> jkanev AT jabber.ccc.de
> <mailto:jkanev AT jabber.ccc.de>
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> -- ____________________________ Pungenday, 7th of Confusion, 3180. 
> jacob kanev twitter: @j_kanev jabber: jkanev AT jabber.ccc.de
> <mailto:jkanev AT jabber.ccc.de>
> 
> 
> 
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