Re: [Int-koordination] [PP-EU.programme] Common European Election Programme

[Julia Reda <julia.reda AT junge-piraten.de>]

For what it's worth: I'm not an international coordinator for the Pirate
Party Germany, but for the Young Pirates Germany, and I agree with
Martina's assessment.

Best,
Julia

On 11/06/2013 10:05 AM, Martina Pöser wrote:
> Dear Muriel,
> 
>  
> I didn't get any other opinion on this until now except for Thomas Gaul's 
> and he is agreeing with me: We just don't have the capacities right now to 
> deal with the onion programme in parallel to the Common Programme and the 
> ratification of the PPEU statutes before our GA at the beginning of 
> December. Afterwards it is more than unclear, if the German Pirates will 
> have the possibility to have another GA before the European elections where 
> such an onion programme could be adopted.
> 
>  
> I still think that it is a good idea to continue working on finding our 
> similarities and make use of them through common campaigns, but we should 
> not do it in an official document (yet), but rather informally after the 
> beginning of December. Maybe we can find some time in Maastricht to meet up 
> and discuss common positions and campaigns.
> 
>  
> So I think it best to cancel the mumble meeting for tonight or use it to 
> find a date for the official mumble meeting for the CEEP.
> 
>  
> I'm sorry that I cannot bring you other news, but we all are working at the 
> limits of our capacities.
> 
>  
> Best regards,
> 
>  
> Martina
>  
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Muriel Rovira Esteva <muriel AT pirata.cat>
> Gesendet: Di 05.11.2013 21:44
> Betreff: Re: [PP-EU.programme] Common European Election Programme
> An: Martina Pöser <martina.poeser AT bremen.piratenpartei.de>; 
> Dear Martina,
> 
> I received your email just after I sent mine.  :)
> 
> I understand perfectly your concern that you won't have time to work
> on this. However, if you guys do not have time, then I doubt any other
> parties will.
> 
> Besides, if PPDE drops it's not only about the work, which is already
> a serious problem (I don't have the time to be leading this myself),
> but mainly about the motivation.
> 
> Honestly, if you guys think that you won't have time to vote this on
> your GA then I don't want to work on it myself. It wouldn't serve the
> purpose why I was doing it in the first place and I am too stressed
> already to engage in tasks that don't have a high outcome in the short
> term.  :P
> 
> I'll be very grateful if you can discuss that among yourselves and
> evaluate the situation within your party in a realistic way. For me
> it's fine what you decide but, given the short deadlines that
> everything is framed on, I need to know ASAP.   :)
> 
> Greetings,
> 
>          Muriel
> 
> 2013/11/5 Martina Pöser <martina.poeser AT bremen.piratenpartei.de>:
>> Hi Muriel,
>>
>> as I didn't talk with anyone else about this, I will not say that this is 
>> an
>> official statement, but just my personal opinion. And I probably wouldn't 
>> be
>> able to really participate due to time constraints.
>>
>> But maybe after this exchange of emails I get some feedback from the German
>> International Coordination on this topic as well. Perhaps Gregory might 
>> want
>> to jump in or someone else. I will come back to you, if I hear anything
>> different.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Martina
>>
>>
>> Am 05.11.2013 19:53, schrieb Muriel Rovira Esteva:
>>
>>> Dear Martina,
>>>
>>> This is perfectly fine.
>>>
>>> I had the impression at the previous meetings that many parties wanted
>>> to do this (specially PPDE, but many others as well), so I was willing
>>> to make the extra effort in order to have our part ready, but it is
>>> also very demanding for us to do everything (as it is for everyone).
>>>
>>> Honestly, I'm not interested in doing all this work just for the sake
>>> of it, but in any case, for sure not now, with all the other things
>>> that we all have to do.    :)
>>>
>>> I'd just like to know if your email is an "official statement" from
>>> PPDE because, if this is the case, then I suggest we forget about the
>>> whole thing (including any Mumble meeting for tomorrow or Thursday),
>>> it wouldn't make sense to do this without the German Pirate Party.
>>>
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>>           Muriel
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/11/5 Martina Pöser <martina.poeser AT bremen.piratenpartei.de>:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Muriel,
>>>>
>>>> As I understood it, the 17th of November is the deadline for additional
>>>> proposals and proposals for changes on the CEEP. Directly afterwards
>>>> there
>>>> should be a mumble conference to discuss and vote all the proposals. We
>>>> could set up a date now or put up a doodle. I might do that tonight, if
>>>> no
>>>> one objects.
>>>>
>>>> The German Pirates will hopefully ratify the finished document already on
>>>> the 1st of December as it is the second and last day of our GA. So we
>>>> will
>>>> need it finished a day earlier, if at all possible. But as there are only
>>>> vetos left, this will hopefully be possible.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the onion programme, I really like the idea, but I don't think
>>>> that we Germans have the capacities to work on it right now, as we are
>>>> having a lot to do to discuss the CEEP inside the party. And it might
>>>> also
>>>> be a problem to make it possible to get it ratified, as we don't know
>>>> yet,
>>>> if there will be another GA after Bremen at the beginning of December.
>>>> Right
>>>> now, we are already working hard on convincing everybody to ratify the
>>>> CEEP
>>>> then, as most people won't have time to read it in detail (and in German)
>>>> before the GA.
>>>>
>>>> Still, I think it would be a good idea to identify more common topics and
>>>> see which pirate parties would support them. The other problem of an
>>>> onion
>>>> programme is, which party will be left out of it. Do we leave the Swedish
>>>> out, because they vetoed most topics, but then again on many of those
>>>> topics, and others besides, there were vetos from other different parties
>>>> as
>>>> well. So I think it won't be easy to identify those topics which are
>>>> shared
>>>> by most of us and put them together. And in the end, it might alienate
>>>> those
>>>> parties which are left out of it. I'd rather like to do this unofficially
>>>> and as a base for common campaigning on a bi- and multilateral basis
>>>> topic
>>>> -by-topic (and at a later date).
>>>>
>>>> I hope that you can accept my reasoning, even if I am one of those
>>>> persons
>>>> who would have loved to have even more topics in a common programme. But
>>>> we
>>>> shouldn't hurry this process overmuch.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Martina
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 04.11.2013 16:23, schrieb Muriel:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>
>>>>> A summary of the whole thing as I understood it, just to make sure
>>>>> that we all have it in mind.  :)
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------
>>>>>
>>>>> COMMON PROGRAMME
>>>>>
>>>>> * On the 17th of November there will be an official "online
>>>>> conference" to discuss the amendments that might have been proposed
>>>>> during this time.
>>>>> * After this Mumble conference there will be a couple of weeks for the
>>>>> parties to veto unacceptable bits.
>>>>> * After the 1st of December we will start the ratification process.
>>>>> * When the ratification processes is finish we will build the Common
>>>>> Programme from the bits that have been ratified by all parties.
>>>>> * We will issue a press release announcing the Common Programme.
>>>>> * The parties will be free to use the Common Programme as it better
>>>>> suits their needs for the elections (as a stand alone text or
>>>>> including parts of it in their own programmes), but there should
>>>>> always be a clear reference directing to the whole text where people
>>>>> can see all the common points.
>>>>>
>>>>> We realized that we need to agree on a date for the press release and
>>>>> then set a deadline for the ratification so that we can collect the
>>>>> results and construct the final version of the Common Programme in
>>>>> time. The deadline suggested for the ratification process was around
>>>>> February (or beginning of March), and for the press release maybe on
>>>>> the same dates of the Founding (22nd of March?) if we want to have a
>>>>> large number of parties present, or something like two weeks earlier
>>>>> if presence is not needed and we want the press to talk about us on
>>>>> different consecutive days. The optimal dates could be discussed and
>>>>> decided upon on the Mumble conference of the 17th, once we're finished
>>>>> with the amendments.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----------
>>>>>
>>>>> ONION PROGRAMME
>>>>>
>>>>> Since we aimed for a consensus for the Common Programme, we left many
>>>>> things out. However, there's a vast majority of parties that agree on
>>>>> some of the proposals that were not included.
>>>>>
>>>>> Our idea is to detect such proposals and agree on the text as well, so
>>>>> that we have a compilation of "widely agreed proposals" that the
>>>>> interested parties can also include in their programmes if they want.
>>>>> These of course would not be part of the Common Programme, and would
>>>>> in principle not be mentioned in the press release. But it will be
>>>>> useful to parties that could benefit from presenting a wider support
>>>>> other than themselves to certain hot topics of interest.
>>>>>
>>>>> For convenience, the bits that were not included in the Common
>>>>> Programme and are potential proposals for the Onion one were collected
>>>>> during the conference in this pad:
>>>>> https://eu.piratenpad.de/ep/pad/view/Athens-no-consensus-bits/uNztmVMW8q
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) The delegates of the interested parties should note in the pad
>>>>> their party name (before Wednesday the 6th) labeling the bits with
>>>>> which they might agree, the ones they don't, and the bits that would
>>>>> need some kind of change or amendment. This should be no extra work
>>>>> because the parties have had to look through the proposals already.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) This Wednesday, 6th of November, at 20.00 h CET, there will be a
>>>>> Mumble meeting to discuss the proposals with more support and prepare
>>>>> a draft of the proposals for this extended Onion Programme (if
>>>>> necessary, we would meet again on Thursday at the same time to finish
>>>>> any remaining bits).
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Following a parallel process to the proposals of the Common
>>>>> Programme, the parties will have time to submit amendments until
>>>>> around the same date as the CP and they will be also discussed on a
>>>>> Mumble meeting. It can be done in the same Mumble meeting after we're
>>>>> finished with the CP amendments, or on another date.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) For the sake of simplicity, the same ratification process can take
>>>>> place in parallel for these proposals. This way, interested parties
>>>>> can just put all the proposals to vote simultaneously. Proposals
>>>>> ratified by all parties would  then make it to the Common Programme,
>>>>> and those ratified by a significant number of them to the Onion
>>>>> Programme.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>                Muriel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/11/3 Martina Pöser <m.poeser AT web.de>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the Conference in Athens is over and we bring you a Draft for a Common
>>>>>> European Election Programme:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://ppeu.net/wiki/doku.php?id=programme:conferences:athens2013:consolidated_programme
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please take a look at it and hand in any proposals for a change or
>>>>>> addition
>>>>>> to it until the 17th of November to me and to this mailing list. Then
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> will be a mumble conference where we will decide upon any changes. The
>>>>>> exact
>>>>>> date and time of the mumble conference is as of yet still unknown, but
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> be announced in time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you like to take a further look of what we've been doing for and in
>>>>>> Athens, please take a look at the wiki page, where you can also find
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> protocol and the pad collecting the results with annotations:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://ppeu.net/wiki/doku.php?id=programme:conferences:athens2013
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can only say that I am very happy with the outcome of the conference
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> hope you will be, too, even if perhaps some of your favourite topics
>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>> been adopted. The adoption process was based on consent and not on
>>>>>> majority
>>>>>> decisions, so one party opposing a position was enough to kick a topic
>>>>>> out.
>>>>>> If you think about it, it is really fantastic that there is still so
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> left that we all have in common! :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Martina
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> PP-EU.Programme mailing list
>>>>>> PP-EU.Programme AT lists.pp-international.net
>>>>>> http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-eu.programme
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/11/3 Martina Pöser <m.poeser AT web.de>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the Conference in Athens is over and we bring you a Draft for a Common
>>>>>> European Election Programme:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://ppeu.net/wiki/doku.php?id=programme:conferences:athens2013:consolidated_programme
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please take a look at it and hand in any proposals for a change or
>>>>>> addition
>>>>>> to it until the 17th of November to me and to this mailing list. Then
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> will be a mumble conference where we will decide upon any changes. The
>>>>>> exact
>>>>>> date and time of the mumble conference is as of yet still unknown, but
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> be announced in time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you like to take a further look of what we've been doing for and in
>>>>>> Athens, please take a look at the wiki page, where you can also find
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> protocol and the pad collecting the results with annotations:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://ppeu.net/wiki/doku.php?id=programme:conferences:athens2013
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can only say that I am very happy with the outcome of the conference
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> hope you will be, too, even if perhaps some of your favourite topics
>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>> been adopted. The adoption process was based on consent and not on
>>>>>> majority
>>>>>> decisions, so one party opposing a position was enough to kick a topic
>>>>>> out.
>>>>>> If you think about it, it is really fantastic that there is still so
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> left that we all have in common! :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Martina
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> PP-EU.Programme mailing list
>>>>>> PP-EU.Programme AT lists.pp-international.net
>>>>>> http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-eu.programme
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> PP-EU.Programme mailing list
>>>>> PP-EU.Programme AT lists.pp-international.net
>>>>> http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-eu.programme
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> PP-EU.Programme mailing list
>>>> PP-EU.Programme AT lists.pp-international.net
>>>> http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-eu.programme
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> PP-EU.Programme mailing list
>>> PP-EU.Programme AT lists.pp-international.net
>>> http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-eu.programme
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> PP-EU.Programme mailing list
>> PP-EU.Programme AT lists.pp-international.net
>> http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-eu.programme
> 
> 
> 
>