Re: [Ag Meinungsfindungstool] Helping the Pirate Party to vanish

["marc" <marc AT merkstduwas.de>]

Hi Mike,

Not sure how to put it ;o)

You wrote:
> I return to answer your questions from last month.  Please be patient
> with me, because there's a misunderstanding to clear up.
>
> > a) Let the users freely choose their favorite tooling,
> > b) within the context of a discourse
> > c) and without any loss of data.
> >
> > Does this make sense to you?
>
> No, not yet.  I understand (a), because I introduced it myself.  It's
> the basic human right of free association.  What I don't understand is
> how it's qualified by location (b) or technical considerations (c).
> Human rights are universal, of course.  They apply everywhere.  So (a)
> cannot possibly be qualified by (b), as implied here.
>
> Certain qualifications *are* possible in individual cases.  Dangerous
> criminals are denied freedom, for example.  But no human right can be
> qualified for the sake of a mere technical consideration.  So (a)
> cannot possibly be qualified by (c), either.
>
> I'm sure you know all this.  You say so below.  But nevertheless you
> imply the opposite with this union of (a, b, c).  This confuses me.

Sorry that I have put it this way. Unfortunately it is realy hard for me to 
express my thoughts in english language, because it's not my mother language 
and sometimes I feel like lost in translation...

Anyway, I didn't want to express that (a) is qualified or restricted by (b) 
and/or (c).

Far from it! Instead (b) and (c) are enhancing (a). Therefore (a), (b) and 
(c) should be seen more as constraints to the SOLUTION but not to the users 
and their freedom of choice!

This might reduces the event horizon of possible solutions at first. But 
later on - that's the hope - it increases the benefit for the user.

We definitely should work towards a solution that respects ALL THREE (a - c) 
constraints, but we can do this iteratively. First of all let's ensure that 
THE SOLUTION fulfills (a). We could name this first iteration "Alpha" and 
it's outcome is neither a specific plattform nor implementation. It's more 
like a conceptual draft or specification to which (b) and (c) are applied in 
the next iterations called "Beta" and "Gamma".

So what's the SOLUTION about?

1) We are in the quest for a better (whatever "better" means) democracy, 
aren't we?
2) We see e-democracy (whatever "e-democracy" means) as a promising answer 
to improve democracy, right?

I would like to see the following as a specification for the SOLUTION:

The SOLUTION should...
a) ... enable free choice of the tooling for every users.
b) ... cover all parts of the decision making process.
c) ... make all discourse related data entered by any user available to 
others.

That's what AG Meinungsfindungstool is working on and we call it "d!sco" 
(Discussion Ontology). Of course there is a lot discussion necessary to 
clarify the details...

> > > I agree with (a), but why restrict the user's choice to (b) and
> > > (c)?  Suppose user U needs a toolset that covers only part of the
> > > discourse, or part of the data.  Why not give U the same freedom
> > > as others to choose according to personal need, or preference?
> > > Who would have the authority to say, "No, that choice is not
> > > permitted".
> >
> > That's not what I wanted to express. The user should not be
> > restricted in any way, but can choose whatever toolset he wants,
> > using whatever data he wants. Even if not any transition between
> > tools might be reasonable in the context of the discourse.
>
> Then isn't the following what you mean to say?
>
>   (a) Let the users freely choose their favorite tooling.
>
> Period.  Or more precisely:
>
>   (a) Let each user freely choose his/her favorite tooling.
>
> If you agree to this, then please don't speak of other things in the
> same connection.  Until we agree on (a), introducing (b) and (c) as
> part of that agreement implies that you don't agree to (a) alone.

I - and AG MFT - fully agree on (a) as a constraint to the SOLUTION.

And (b) and (c) are further constraints to the SOLUTION.

> > In my honest opinion (a) is already in place today. Everyone is free
> > to use the toolset of his free choice. But one big thing missing now
> > is the availability of the data. When it comes to changing the
> > tools, the move of already entered data is mainly the problem. And
> > to be honest, I don't want to enter the data again, just because I
> > switched the tool, do you?
>
> No, not if it's unecessary and harmful.  But more important, I would
> like to have other tools to switch to *in the first place*.  I would
> not like the other tools to be forbidden, or to have their development
> impeded or limited in any way.

So neither I will.

> So here I return to (a) all alone,
> when you wish in the same breath to speak of (b) and (c).  You said:
>
> > In my honest opinion (a) is already in place today. Everyone is free
> > to use the toolset of his free choice. ...
>
> Today you are right.  But tomorrow?  I'm sorry to repeat, but we must
> be especially clear on this issue.  A platform cannot succeed without
> users.  There are exactly two ways to obtain those users:
>
>   (1) Eliminate the network effects between platforms, thus
>       leveling the playing field and enabling the users to range
>       freely from platform to platform.
>
>   (2) Rely on network effects to force all users onto our own
>       platform, thus establishing it as a de-facto monopoly.
>
> The fact that we have freedom of choice in 2013 does not give us
> licence to take away that freedom in 2014 and to put a monopoly in its
> place.  Of course not.  Yet that is exactly our intention if we aren't
> working to obtain our users by method (1).  There are no grey areas in
> between, so the only possible alternative is to obtain those users by
> method (2), which is the opposite of free choice.
>
> In other words, if we really agree to (a), then we must work on (1).
> And if we don't work on (1), then we don't really agree to (a).
> Logically this is inescapable.

I am fine with (1) and therefore (a).

But thinking one step beyond, (b) and (c) are NOT conflicting with (a) from 
my point of view.

> > I am not talking about merging plattforms - there should plenty of
> > them exist. The trick is to make them cooperate by sharing data and
> > enhancing the processes one another.
>
> There won't be plenty of platforms by default.  There will be exactly
> one platform unless we cooperate to enable free choice.  We might have
> state-of-the-art data transfers, but no platforms to transfer to.
> We're living in a period that's like the laissez-faire of the 1800s.
> Society has yet to learn the necessity of a safe environment for
> competition.  Therefore we must cooperate to create our own safe
> environment, or it'll be dog-eat-dog.  Only the biggest will survive.

That's why we are here, isn't it? To enable cooperation for a better 
tomorrow.

> Of all the projects, AG Meinungsfindungstool is the most forward
> thinking.  That's what attracted us (Thomas and me) to your earlier
> powwows.  You understood the distinction between primary and decision
> systems and the need to keep the two separate.  You understood the
> need for discussion as opposed to the mindless pressing of vote
> buttons.  And you were working to enable a free choice of tools, at
> least within your own platform, which is (at least) a step in the
> right direction.

What do you mean by "your own platform"? There is no such thing like A 
PLATFORM in terms of AG MFT! Of course we have just started to work on some 
reference implementations, but that's mainly a proof of concept. The 
expected outcome is more like a cookbook: The Common Discussion Standard 
(CDS). This is one possible SOLUTION that would respect (a), (b) and (c) all 
together.

Everyone is welcome to contribute to acquire this vision.

> These three things put you out in front of the field
> and made it worthwhile talking to you.
>
> (And again the future of the Pirate Party is bound up in this, even if
> they don't see it yet.  So altogether it's a very interesting topic.)

Unfortunately from time to time it seems to me you are baked into old belief 
systems. The Pirate Party is just a vehicle to ride with for a while. It's 
necessary to speed up things. Not more. Not less.

What else could I say? I'll try to focus it in german. Maybe someone is able 
to translate this into english better than I can:


Der Punkt ist glaube ich, dass wir scheinbar genau dasselbe wollen, aber auf 
unterschiedlichen Detailebenen denken und argumentieren.

Es ist unstrittig, das die Benutzer die freie Wahl zwischen den Tools haben 
müssen. Dies ist für mich die Grundbedingung (a), welche von einer LÖSUNG 
erfüllt werden muss.

Allerdings gibt es noch zwei weitere Bedingungen, welche von der LÖSUNG 
ebenfalls erfüllt sein sollten:

Die LÖSUNG sollte auch...
b) ... den gesamten Prozess der Willensbildung abdecken.
c) ... die von den Nutzern in den Diskursen erfassten Daten für alle 
verfügbar machen können.

Diese Bedingungen schränken aber nicht den Benutzer, sondern die mögliche 
LÖSUNG ein. Aber die LÖSUNG ist keine dedizierte Plattform oder spezielle 
Implementierung. Es ist vielmehr eine Art Konzeption oder Spezifikation, 
welche iterativ erarbeitet werden kann.

Die AG MFT arbeitet daran.

Wir fangen auch gerade an Referenzimplementierungen zu erstellen, welche 
mehr unsere Theorien überprüfen sollen und als Ergebnis die Verabschiedung 
einer gemeinsamen Standardisierung für Diskussionen haben könnten: The 
Common Discussion Standard.

Wir nennen den Prototypen "d!sco" (Discussion Ontology). Hier gibt es 
natürlich noch jede menge offener Detailfragen zu klären.

Jeder ist herzlich eingeladen an dieser Vision mitzuarbeiten!


Cheers
marc