Re: [Ag Meinungsfindungstool] [MG] What next? The way forward according to Henri Nathanson

[Jacopo Tolja <jacopo.tolja AT gmail.com>]

Q - By what steps do you hope to advance the field of participatory democracy (pd), or otherwise
achieve an outcome that is beneficial to humanity?

A - Is easy to demonstrate the unfitness of the past , recent, current political establishment, (first step)

Is harder but not impossible to demonstrate that a participatory democracy is beneficial to humanity, (second step)

Here at MG we discuss the how but i feel that the discussion enter into a loop and therefore is not producing an outcome. We discuss about overplan and we, IMHO miss to act in such structured and methodological way that aloud to dynamically change the overplan if deemed necessary.

The perfect participatory democracy must be flexible to adapt to the contest, what is good in the US may not be appropriate in Italy and the same for many different countries, The variables are many. Certainly I believe that as the society evolve and "connect" more and more the differences will diminish in time and there will be less need of different methodology here and there. 

The set of rules each group (local,regional national etc) will set for themselves  that can be shared will permit to federalize group to share decision (third step) so that larger group will participate to the decision where the interest are shared.

Therefore we can elaborate that certain policies can be elaborated if certain shared rules are accepted.

(certain here means very little because this will come from the participatory process and will be defined by the rules that can be shared)

I don't want to bored you with my theories but I have the strongest feeling that this will happen naturally and automatically. Unfortunately recent Italian political evidence show that the participatory democracy movement can be derailed easily if fall under any leadership. Therefore IMHO, ANY pd model, where is present even the slightest delegated feature or leadership structure, will eventually fail.

Kind regards

Jacopo

 

On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 4:12 PM, Michael Allan <mike AT zelea.com> wrote:

Meantime I assume the answer is 'none'.  You have ideas about a theory
(quotes below), but none (as yet) about how to put it into practice.
http://metagovernment.org/wiki/Overplan/soc/person-22

You're in good company, Henri.  It looks like 'none' will be a common
answer in this little survey.  But that should come as no surprise.
The reason we ask the question is because we don't know the answer.

Mike

Michael Allan said:
> And you, Henri?  Maybe you can answer our question.  By what steps do
> you hope to advance the field of participatory democracy, or otherwise
> achieve an outcome that is beneficial to humanity?

Henri Nathanson (Mud games for kids) said:
https://service.piratenpartei.de/pipermail/ag-meinungsfindungstool/2014-July/002747.html
> You have to understand first, what you can already observe in the
> political arena. Why do representative structures build up? Take a
> pen and paper draw some smilies and get an idea how structures of
> dominance build up.  Democracy is not a consensual system. It is a
> civilized form of war. But besides being stable because of that
> fundation, it is economically optimal.  Democracy is not only given
> naturally. It is free and great ans superb.
>
> Take two of your smilies and draw a circle around them. This first
> group can dominate all others. No proposals needed!! But a program
> on which one of the group acts as a politician and the other as a
> voter. That is all you need to know to understand democracy. Groups
> can cooperate with a coalition program. There is consensus within
> groups and competition between them.


Henri Nathanson (Anybody checked out placeavote.com?) said:
https://service.piratenpartei.de/pipermail/ag-meinungsfindungstool/2014-June/002706.html
> Grab yourself a pen and a paper, put up an amount of smilies
> voluntarily on the paper, draw a line around two of such smilies to
> form a first group, and ask yourself why such group can dominate all
> others? That is decentralized dominance. Unite et impera. Ask
> yourself, what happens, if such group-buildings goes on. What ideal
> structures come up? Work with contracts to get a civilized
> version. And you are fit with democracy.

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