Re: [Ag Meinungsfindungstool] mud games for kids

[Henri Nathanson <henri.nathanson AT gmail.com>]

Hi Paul.
You are right. There is more than just the negotiation. Decision systems give an interface, which take opinions as already given. There is quite some space left to work on opinion building. Especially teaching people to think socially. But I would be careful to still name that area a part of democracy. Democracy is pretty bluntly a harsh competition. No matter if your aims come from egoistic or more social thinking. ... Wolfgang is already very much pissed. I still get the Meinungsbildung mails in my inbox. I got irritated as you talk about democracy and try to find a common ground on 70+ crazy "democracy" products. I should really leave this list. Finally accept that you are happy doing your job while you miss out on democracy. Its kinda hard.
Good luck.
Henri

Am 07.07.2014 14:24 schrieb <pa.rei AT gmx.de>:

Hi Henri,

 

you said that democracy was a "civilized form of war". What you mean is your "democratic market mechanism", right? But I believe that democracy is more than just about negotiation or balancing of particular interests. That's a part of it. But there's more.

 

How do these interests emerge? In a democracy, they should not simply represent egoistic interests. Instead, people are willing to find a "win-win-solution". It's not about negotiating a price of a car, it's about following one's common values, weighing consequences and finding creative solutions. That's a big challenge. If most people should be able to understand that and help, there has to be a structure supporting them. Not by negotiation but by deliberation.

 

Are we just trying to solve this problem of current democracy by negotiation? No, we are deliberating...

 

Greetings,

Paul

 

Gesendet: Sonntag, 06. Juli 2014 um 14:04 Uhr
Von: "Henri Nathanson" <henri.nathanson AT gmail.com>
An: "AG MFT" <ag-meinungsfindungstool AT lists.piratenpartei.de>
Betreff: Re: [Ag Meinungsfindungstool] mud games for kids

Hi Thomas.
Thanx for feeding the Troll.
But its not my fault you cannot find democracy. I told you its nonsense to go for opinion or discussion systems before you got the decision making right. That is the lower API layer, which works with opinions already given. And for decision systems you can drop everything, which works with proposals. I then guess your long list of tools goes down to zero.

You have to understand first, what you can already observe in the political arena. Why do representative structures build up? Take a pen and paper draw some smilies and get an idea how structures of dominance build up. Democracy is not a consensual system. It is a civilized form of war. But besides being stable because of that fundation, it is economically optimal. Democracy is not only given naturally. It is free and great ans superb.

Take two of your smilies and draw a circle around them. This first group can dominate all others. No proposals needed!! But a program on which one of the group acts as a politician and the other as a voter. That is all you need to know to understand democracy. Groups can cooperate with a coalition program. There is consensus within groups and competition between them.

Just drop what you did. And spent some time to get familiar with democracy. It is so very easy.

Henri

Hi Henry,

you think that we're doing mud games ? Well, that is the point that we
have already crossed. We had more than one year of talk. Everyone was
thinking that the others are just doing 'mud games for kids'. Well,
the way we took was to say : "Okay, let's make reality decide what the
best grass root democracy tool is for the users !"
That's why we have started to build a common platform for all discussion
tools.

Now you have two choices left :
Either you can waste your time by throwing mud at us for going this way
or you can participate and try to make your idea compatible to create
competition between your tool and ours.


Greetz,
DerThomas

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