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Re: [AG Liquid Democracy] Anybody checked out placeavote.com?


Chronologisch Thread 
  • From: Henri Nathanson <henri.nathanson AT gmail.com>
  • To: Liquid Democracy in der Piratenpartei <ag-liquid-democracy AT lists.piratenpartei.de>
  • Subject: Re: [AG Liquid Democracy] Anybody checked out placeavote.com?
  • Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 19:04:35 +0200
  • List-archive: <https://service.piratenpartei.de/pipermail/ag-liquid-democracy>
  • List-id: Liquid Democracy in der Piratenpartei <ag-liquid-democracy.lists.piratenpartei.de>


2014-06-02 17:24 GMT+02:00 Martin Stolze <pirate.martin AT stolze.cc>:

Hi Henri,

 
Hi Martin, 
thanks for the talk. 

It may be hard to wrap your mind around this, but I have actually not much of an opinion on the subject. I really can’t debate the pros and cons of direct democracy and I lack bandwidth to study this sufficiently. This is why I love to delegate my vote. It is however obvious that new means of communication will have an influence on how power is distributed and decisions are made. Current systems are firmly anchored within institutions that were formed according to circumstances that did not conceive the current technological possibilities.


I fully accept you saying that you stand aside an expert knowlegde of democracy. Actually I very much appreciate that. Because it makes sense. It took me ten years to get into the subject, and I had the backup of a study in economics and some really high motivation to analyse this field. If you decide to "delegate me some trust" I'd be happy to prove you right in that decision of yours.

Let me give you an overall picture of the current situation of politics. At least from a structural point of view: There are two natural forms of democracy. The direct democracy, which develops in situations, where people are centered in one place, and the representative democracy, which delevelops naturally in non-centralized situations. Historically we have a focus on direct democracy. So today we end up in a structure, where we mix direct democracy, namely the parliament, with the representative system, namely voters, programs and coalitions. We will leave this mixture towards a "purely" representative structure, because it is much more liberal and efficient. The reason we did not yet do so is mainly scientific. We do not have an idea of a purely representative democracy yet.


Evolution dictates that it is inevitable that they are going to adapt to new circumstances. I can’t tell how this may look like but I am a pirate because I hope that we can accelerate and influence this development in a way that old stakeholders integrate a more diverse rational and distribute responsibility more widely. 

 

To make this more palpable, think about education. The current system hasn’t changed much in past few hundred years. However, the emergence of new technology is already transforming it radically and it is clear by now that 10 years down the road “going to study” will have an entirely different quality then it had for the past 100 years.


You mention "new technology" and "new means of communication". And yes, I went into the IT start-up universe years ago, because I expected new forms of democracy will be delivered by internet applications. And I still expect that. But communication technology alone is not the only means of progress. It may need some initial energy or catalysor to start from our high entropy state to a future low entropy state. If I may use such a picture. And I, too, hope the pirates will do that job. Well, I am a pirate.
 

 

noddr.de looks actually quite nifty and I like the premise. In fact I just signed up. I am also hooked to the Bundes Liquid Feedback and login occasionally. Though, I never managed to do anything on it, probably due to my lack of knowledge ;)


Thanks for the feedback. If you do not get familiar with Liquid Feedback, well, you are not the only one.
 

 

They are all great ideas and wonderful people, but do they have the capacity to execute?

 

Here is the thing, the world-with-internet is a winner-takes it all environment. Betting on “Studi-VZ” makes no sense if there is Facebook around the corner. None of the solutions around look very much like a winner to me.

- That is why I am curious about throwing my lot in with people who have a much higher likelihood of actually producing winners.

It’s the same ration that made me buy Google stock back in the days or Bitcoin or the future IPO of Lending Club for that matter, instead of holding conventional financials. - I am not an expert in either of these fields but they look like winners to me.

I am asking who the future winner in the electoral space will be, because I really have no clue.


Somehow I really ask myself, if you come along to look for an investment opportunity. Hell, this is funny. But on the other side, it is very wise. Any time these days this movement I mentioned can come to a start. There are two major development paths I see. The first one is with political parties. If the plattform you just registered would be used - if it would be a winner - the pirate party in Baden-Württemberg would shortly prove structural advantages over other parties. This would spread out the usage within pirate party organisations and then, of course, competing parties. Another path starts with companies like eopinio offering such plattform to cities, enabling the politically interested inhabitants to advance by an efficient structure in a way, the established parties would again be forced to copy them. Alltogether this is the pathway of a nice revolution. For Germany it ends with purely representative structures on the federal level. 

I can predict you this development with quite some certainty, because there is no alternative to economically efficient structures. This is like a chemical reaction, indeed. But who gets it started and runs it down the way, that is still to be observed. If you watch closely, you will have all the posibilities to find a nice investing opportunity. The transformation will take years and years. But then, with the highly developed communication technology nowadays, dont except it to run too slow.

I am looking for partners to get the "noddr" project running. What it needs to become a winner is a manager and a frontend specialist. Scientifically it is equiped sufficiently.

Henri
 

--Martin



On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Henri Nathanson <henri.nathanson AT gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Martin.
Took me a while to get into your perspektive. So you came by this placeavote and flattered as it is so nicely made. Well, I agree on this, besides I only checked the main page, and besides I hope it fails as soon as possible as the direct democracy of it weakens the representive structures, which actually carry the efficiency of politics. As far as such exists... But we dont have to discuss this. You hardly have the knowledge anyways and it is not what u r heading for. You are heading for something like this http://piraten-bw.noddr.de
This is a tool, which enables a new form of liquid democracy. Or just just representative democracy. Or just democracy. It is easy and you can do this onion stuff with it. It is an ecommerce plattform and you can put its products, political programs, everywhere you have slots for commercial advertising. E.g. Facebook. It is very far in front of everything you or anyone else knows. For the inner party democracy we build SMV. To vote more often? What do we do for the average voter? With this plattform every voter of the "constituency" can vote any time. Pirate programs only, of course. That is already online and working. The only thing missing is a manager or a managing group, some better graphics and some optimized onioning. .... I thought that should a null effort. But I was told otherwise.
Henri

Am 02.06.2014 11:12 schrieb "Martin Stolze" <pirate.martin AT stolze.cc>:

​Henri,
I am glad to see that you are excited about democracy. Just to clarify, no I am not talking about the masses, I am not even talking about the direct democracy.
As I have a little exposure to software development, dabbled a little with startups and like invest into them I looked at this project from the perspective of an acquirer-hire. Admitted, the term isn’t really suitable for politics.

I only put the liquid group into cc because it seems to be the only place in the pirate world where there is still some active development on any meaningful scale going on?! I remember a few things in Italy but haven’t heard anything since 2012.

As for your question, the degree to which democracy can be applied depends on the situation. Clearly we all have made decisions in a direct democratic fashion, I am not arguing the fact that too much democracy in a difficult decision can have adverse consequences depending on the intellectual capacity of the constituency. – Again, I have no desire to debate this.

Bests​


On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Henri Nathanson <henri.nathanson AT gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Martin.
what are you talking about situational? The situation is I went out to discover democracy ten years ago. And as I am a highly more brilliant thinker than all the others I met along the way I can tell you teaching democracy to pirates is like back feeding carrots to chickens. Not to say pigs. There are two main forms of democracy. Direct and representative. The latter works without parliaments. And we dont know it yet from practise. We only know a very crippled version hold hostage by direct democracy bullshit. Direct democracy is at most for small groups. But we talk about the masses. Dont we? About us. Living in this meaningless world which only needs some small organisational changes to fly to another level. But cant! I researched democracy, coded it over many years and prototypes, PHP btw, put it online, open-sourced it, only to get told by a fat IT guy it wont trust me anything at all. Just like that. The leader of a SMV project couldnt believe coalitions could at all work - eyes wide shut - and another leading IT guy basically wanted a system without data. That is the situation. The efficiency of democracy is subject of economic research since a long time. My name is spelled with an "i". My father named me after Henri Dunant, the founder of the red cross. And now I need a carrot to eat for destress. Where did I put them...
Henri

Am 01.06.2014 22:08 schrieb "Martin Stolze" <pirate.martin AT stolze.cc>:
​​​Hi Henry,
Thank you for your opinion. I don't want to get into this argument but agree that​ ​efficiency of democracy is highly situational.
--Martin​


On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 9:58 PM, Henri Nathanson <henri.nathanson AT gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Martin.
Any good idea with democracy is far from direct democracy.
Henri

Am 01.06.2014 20:50 schrieb "Martin Stolze" <pirate.martin AT stolze.cc>:
​​
Hi Together,
I keep arguing that a lack of infrastructure is actually our biggest challenge. I guess, by now, it is safe to say that we don't actually have the capacity to build something ample ourselves (Liquid Feedback, shitty mailing lists, limesurvey you name it). The way I see it is that we simply don't manage to activate the talent that would be necessary to develop something pioneering. All the good ideas and innovations coupled with our lofty idealism is worth nothing if nobody is pouring them into Java or PHP.

The guys at placeavote.com have been gone through the news as they try to shoehorn direct democracy into any form of electoral system by means of levering it out and replacing politicians with proxies that only relay decisions made by the corresponding constituency.

Of course implementation, especially in the US, is highly unlikely. However using it at least internally to a certain degree or forking it a little can be a chance for us to move out of the technological middle ages that we are stuck in.

It also seems not to be open source (yet?) but I am thinking more along the lines of sweet-talking the guys behind it into working for us as some kind of software consultants, maybe we can flatter them with a bit of the cash that should come our way in form of election refunds?
​ :)​


What do you think?

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