Re: [AG Liquid Democracy] Anybody checked out placeavote.com?

[Henri Nathanson <henri.nathanson AT gmail.com>]

Hi Martin.
Took me a while to get into your perspektive. So you came by this placeavote and flattered as it is so nicely made. Well, I agree on this, besides I only checked the main page, and besides I hope it fails as soon as possible as the direct democracy of it weakens the representive structures, which actually carry the efficiency of politics. As far as such exists... But we dont have to discuss this. You hardly have the knowledge anyways and it is not what u r heading for. You are heading for something like this http://piraten-bw.noddr.de
This is a tool, which enables a new form of liquid democracy. Or just just representative democracy. Or just democracy. It is easy and you can do this onion stuff with it. It is an ecommerce plattform and you can put its products, political programs, everywhere you have slots for commercial advertising. E.g. Facebook. It is very far in front of everything you or anyone else knows. For the inner party democracy we build SMV. To vote more often? What do we do for the average voter? With this plattform every voter of the "constituency" can vote any time. Pirate programs only, of course. That is already online and working. The only thing missing is a manager or a managing group, some better graphics and some optimized onioning. .... I thought that should a null effort. But I was told otherwise.
Henri

Am 02.06.2014 11:12 schrieb "Martin Stolze" <pirate.martin AT stolze.cc>:

​Henri,
I am glad to see that you are excited about democracy. Just to clarify, no I am not talking about the masses, I am not even talking about the direct democracy.
As I have a little exposure to software development, dabbled a little with startups and like invest into them I looked at this project from the perspective of an acquirer-hire. Admitted, the term isn’t really suitable for politics.

I only put the liquid group into cc because it seems to be the only place in the pirate world where there is still some active development on any meaningful scale going on?! I remember a few things in Italy but haven’t heard anything since 2012.

As for your question, the degree to which democracy can be applied depends on the situation. Clearly we all have made decisions in a direct democratic fashion, I am not arguing the fact that too much democracy in a difficult decision can have adverse consequences depending on the intellectual capacity of the constituency. – Again, I have no desire to debate this.

Bests​

On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Henri Nathanson <henri.nathanson AT gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Martin.
what are you talking about situational? The situation is I went out to discover democracy ten years ago. And as I am a highly more brilliant thinker than all the others I met along the way I can tell you teaching democracy to pirates is like back feeding carrots to chickens. Not to say pigs. There are two main forms of democracy. Direct and representative. The latter works without parliaments. And we dont know it yet from practise. We only know a very crippled version hold hostage by direct democracy bullshit. Direct democracy is at most for small groups. But we talk about the masses. Dont we? About us. Living in this meaningless world which only needs some small organisational changes to fly to another level. But cant! I researched democracy, coded it over many years and prototypes, PHP btw, put it online, open-sourced it, only to get told by a fat IT guy it wont trust me anything at all. Just like that. The leader of a SMV project couldnt believe coalitions could at all work - eyes wide shut - and another leading IT guy basically wanted a system without data. That is the situation. The efficiency of democracy is subject of economic research since a long time. My name is spelled with an "i". My father named me after Henri Dunant, the founder of the red cross. And now I need a carrot to eat for destress. Where did I put them...
Henri

Am 01.06.2014 22:08 schrieb "Martin Stolze" <pirate.martin AT stolze.cc>:

​​​Hi Henry,

Thank you for your opinion. I don't want to get into this argument but agree that​ ​efficiency of democracy is highly situational.

--Martin​

On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 9:58 PM, Henri Nathanson <henri.nathanson AT gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Martin.
Any good idea with democracy is far from direct democracy.
Henri

Am 01.06.2014 20:50 schrieb "Martin Stolze" <pirate.martin AT stolze.cc>:

​​

Hi Together,
I keep arguing that a lack of infrastructure is actually our biggest challenge. I guess, by now, it is safe to say that we don't actually have the capacity to build something ample ourselves (Liquid Feedback, shitty mailing lists, limesurvey you name it). The way I see it is that we simply don't manage to activate the talent that would be necessary to develop something pioneering. All the good ideas and innovations coupled with our lofty idealism is worth nothing if nobody is pouring them into Java or PHP.

The guys at placeavote.com have been gone through the news as they try to shoehorn direct democracy into any form of electoral system by means of levering it out and replacing politicians with proxies that only relay decisions made by the corresponding constituency.

Of course implementation, especially in the US, is highly unlikely. However using it at least internally to a certain degree or forking it a little can be a chance for us to move out of the technological middle ages that we are stuck in.

It also seems not to be open source (yet?) but I am thinking more along the lines of sweet-talking the guys behind it into working for us as some kind of software consultants, maybe we can flatter them with a bit of the cash that should come our way in form of election refunds?

​ :)​

What do you think?

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