Re: [Int-koordination] Fwd: Re: [pp-eu] Legal difficulties with asynchronous voting on Statutes

[Bastian <bastian AT piratbb.de>]

Doch, die Satzung schreibt ein _Treffen_ vor: "Meeting may be in person or 
online". Eine asynchrone Abstimmung ist kein _Meeting_.

Dass die PPCZ das so macht, ist völlig in Ordnung. Dann muss man die Satzung 
der PPEU eben (vorher) ändern.

Eine asynchrone Abstimmung entspricht in Deutschland einem schriftlichen 
Verfahren, das zulässig ist, wenn alle Mitglieder - also einstimmig - dem 
Beschluss zustimmen. Man kann das in der Satzung auch abweichend regeln, aber 
man muss es regeln sonst gilt: §32 Absatz 2 BGB: 
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__32.html 

Ich bin mir ziemlich sicher, dass es in Belgien ähnliche Regelungen gibt.

Cheers
Bastian


> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Mikuláš Peksa
> Gesendet: Montag, 1. Februar 2016 19:22
> An: Internationale Koordination
> Betreff: Re: [Int-koordination] Fwd: Re: [pp-eu] Legal difficulties with
> asynchronous voting on Statutes
> 
> Hallo,
> 
> auf jeden fall gab es keine Abstimmung bei dieser Antwort.
> 
> Aber ehrlich sagen, ich muss mit ihm zustimmen. Ich sehe (persönlich) keinen
> Wiederspruch zwischen § 25 (2) der Satzung und asynchrones Treffen.
> 
> Was ist eigentlitch Problem mit dem asynchronem Treffen? Ich Frage nur, weil
> die PPCZ macht alle Wahlen und Abstimmungen online und asynchron. Es was
> nie ein Problem....
> 
> Beste Grüsse,
> 
> Mikuláš (als Mitglied des Vorstands)
> 
> ______________________________________________________________
> > Od: Thomas Gaul <thomas.gaul AT piratenpartei.de>
> > Komu: Internationale Koordination
> > <int-koordination AT lists.piratenpartei.de>
> > Datum: 01.02.2016 18:38
> > Předmět: [Int-koordination] Fwd: Re: [pp-eu] Legal difficulties with
> > asynchronous voting on Statutes
> >
> >Hallo,
> >
> >die schnelle, vermutlich nicht mit dem Board abgestimmt Antwort hat uns
> >soeben erreicht.
> >
> >Beste Grüße
> >
> >Thomas
> >
> >
> >-------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht --------
> >Betreff: Re: [pp-eu] Legal difficulties with asynchronous voting on
> >Statutes
> >Datum: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 17:32:22 +0000
> >Von: BJARNEMALM Mattias <mattias.bjarnemalm AT europarl.europa.eu>
> >Antwort an: PPEU coordination group <pp-eu AT lists.pp-international.net>
> >An: EU Election coordination group <pp-eu AT lists.pp-international.net>,
> >PPEU Board <pp-eu.board AT lists.pp-international.net>, Council of the
> >European Pirate Party <pp-eu.council AT lists.pp-international.net>
> >
> >Dear Thomas, dear all,
> >
> >1) our statutes say nothing about whether we can have an asynchronous
> >voting system or not. The board is of the opinion that as asynchronous
> >voting is an age old method that has been employed at numerous physical
> >meetings all over the world for hundreds of years, in the form voting
> >urns and the possibility to go and vote over the course of the
> >day(s) that the meeting is going on, or during a more limited time
> >frame, while at the same time allowing other discussions in plenary.
> >Doing that in the online environment during a meeting is not more
> >strange than doing it in the fleshworld. And as it is a
> >practicalimplementation of voting on a very concrete level it is
> >definitely not addressed in our statutes.
> >
> >On a similar note: the choice platform in the digital environment (be
> >it Mumble or any other platform) is the equivalent of the choice of
> >venue in a physical meeting. It is normally handled by the board (or in
> >more professional organisations by staff) and nothing that has to be
> >decided on by the council (unless the council explicitly desire to do
> >so, as is their prerogative, §14(1)).
> >
> >This is of course the boards interpretation of the statutes, and should
> >any member disagree with our interpretation you are more than welcome
> >to address that disagreement at a council meeting.
> >2) The reason the board have not presented a new call for a Council
> >meeting to address the proposed statute changes is that our statutes
> >clearly states that there are some topics that shall always be
> >addressed at the first council meeting of the year. Namely Membership
> >fees, §13(1), and board elections, §17(5). So the board need to prepare
> >these topics before we can set a date for a new Council meeting.
> >
> >3) If there is, as you imply, a lack of trust for the board of the
> >European Pirate Party from our German member I am more than willing to
> >speak directly to the board of the German pirate party to address that
> >issue. I believe that trust is imperative if we want to achieve
> >anything together, and if there is a lack of trust it must be addressed
> >at the highest possible level.
> >
> >I hope my explanations has shed some light on the situation, and I
> >thank you for getting in touch with us regarding your concerns.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >Mab
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: pp-eu [mailto:pp-eu-bounces AT lists.pp-international.net] On
> >>Behalf Of Thomas Gaul
> >>Sent: 01 February 2016 11:11
> >>To: PPEU Board; Council of the European Pirate Party; EU Election
> >>coordination group
> >>Subject: [pp-eu] Legal difficulties with asynchronous voting on
> >>Statutes
> >>
> >>
> >>Dear Board of PPEU!
> >>
> >>Considering the current statutes it will be legally not possible to
> >>vote on statutes amendments in an asychronous voting system. In the
> >>current state the statutes only allows to vote in a syncronous way
> >>such as online or real life meeting, meaning the vote has to be
> >>instant. For this just read Art. 14 (7) 'Meeting may be in person or 
> >>online' and
> Art.
> >>25 (2) 'members entitled to vote present represented'.
> >>
> >>If so wanted the statutes must  be changed in a real meeting first,
> >>before you can implement a asyncronously voting system.
> >>
> >>As time goes by we propose to go for an online meeting first on mumble
> >>at a given time and date. Considering the time lap between the council
> >>meeting in Brussels and today at this online meeting of the Council of
> >>PPEU all proposed statute amendments concerning the move to Luxembourg
> >>should be dealt with plus a proposal on the possibility of an
> >>asyncronous voting plattform.
> >>
> >>This is a great chance for PPEU for getting registered in Luxembourg
> >>in the shortest time possible and it should not be omitted.
> >>
> >>On behalf of PPDE we urge you to invite a Council meeting a.s.a.p., esp.
> >>on changing the statutes. We also recommend an organised discussion
> >>way up front before the meeting, as well as asyncronous as online in 
> >>person.
> >>
> >>Best regards
> >>Thomas Gaul
> >>on behalf of PPDE
> >>Delegation to PPEU
> >>
> >>P.S.: Publishing the minutes of the PPEU Board would help trusting the
> >>board with its work.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>####
> >>http://ppeu.net/wiki/doku.php?id=statutes:final
> >>
> >>Article 14 - Composition and Powers of the Council
> >>(7) The Council will meet at least once in a calendar year, more often
> >>if requested by at least 1/4 of the Ordinary Members or by a decision
> >>of the Board. _Meeting may be in person or online_. If the Council
> >>meeting is in person, remote participation of non-attending members
> >>shall be possible. The Board will prepare the meetings and invite all
> >>members by email at least one month before the date of the Council
> >>meeting. In urgent cases this time may be shortened to an appropriate
> >>length. _The invitation to the Council meeting has to specify date,
> >>time, place and the draft agenda of the meeting_. A link to a website
> >>with the agenda in the invitation shall be sufficient and necessary.
> >>
> >>Article 25 – Change of Statutes
> >>(2) Decisions regarding amendments to the Statutes can only be taken
> >>if there is an attendance quota of two-thirds of the _members entitled
> >>to vote present or represented_ and shall be taken with a double
> >>majority of two-thirds of the votes cast by two-thirds of the Ordinary
> >>Members taking part in the voting, except for decisions on the Principles 
> >>(Art.
> >>4) and Objectives (Art. 5) where consent of all the Ordinary Council
> >>Members is necessary.
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >pp-eu mailing list
> >pp-eu AT lists.pp-international.net
> >http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-eu
> >
> >
> >--
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> >
> 
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