Re: [Int-koordination] [pp-leaders.discussion] [Board] Fwd: [pp-leaders] CoA complaint: motions relating to affiliation fees

[Brendan Molloy <brendan.molloy AT pirateparty.org.au>]

Would you lot mind not derailing one of my email threads _just this once_?

Change the subject line, email isn't that hard.

Thomas Gaul wrote:
> Dear Andrew!
> 
> Thank you for your reply!
> 
> Alas the answer is missing. Please state out your accusations! Facts! No 
> derailing.
> 
> I added some cc's. 
> 
> Just in case - you are missing the point: you are accusing others of 
> criminal behaviour. Please state out the facts even it might be involving 
> me in the role of PPI or others.
> 
> Again, on behalf of the Pirate Party of Germany please offer the facts! If 
> they have bias it will have consequences.
> 
> Thank you for willing to help the movement by delivering the facts. In the 
> interest of the movement please give all of us the facts. Otherwise you 
> just derailed. And you know it.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Thomas Gaul
> 
> 
> internationaler Koordinator - international Coordinator 
> Piratenpartei Deutschland - Pirate Party of Germany, Pflugstraße 9a, 
> D-10115 Berlin, Germany 
> 
> Die Piratenpartei Deutschland wird gemeinschaftlich vertreten von Stefan 
> Körner (Vorsitzender) Carsten Sawosch (Stellvertretender Vorsitzender) 
> Stefan Bartels (Schatzmeister) Stepanie Schmiedke (Generalsekretärin) 
> Kristos Thingilouthis (Politischer Geschäftsführer) Lothar Krauß 
> (Stellvertretender Schatzmeister) Mark Huger (Stellvertretender 
> Generalsekretär) Bernd Schreiner (Stellvertretender politischer 
> Geschäftsführer) und Michael Ebner (Zweiter Stellvertretender 
> Generalsekretär)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: pp-leaders.discussion 
> [mailto:pp-leaders.discussion-bounces AT lists.pp-international.net] Im 
> Auftrag von Andrew Norton
> Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Dezember 2014 23:13
> An: pp-leaders.discussion AT lists.pp-international.net; 
> int-koordination AT lists.piratenpartei.de >> 'internationale Koordination'
> Betreff: Re: [pp-leaders.discussion] [Board] Fwd: [pp-leaders] CoA 
> complaint: motions relating to affiliation fees
> 
> Frankly, I don't care if you're swapping hats at will. Unless Thomas Gaul 
> the PPI Board member at person-at-issue is not just physically different 
> from Thomas Gaul the PP-DE 'rep', but not closely tied with them either, 
> then there is a clear conflict of interest.
> 
> Your demands despite this underscore your unsuitability for any kind of 
> role.
> 
> As you yourself note, you're not even the 'only' representative, but just 
> "one of the official representatives of PP-DE." in your own words.
> Thus there is no requirement that it involve you in any capacity as 
> representing the PP-DE in this regards.
> 
> Also, forgive me for saying, but your credibility with me (and others) is 
> completely spent. You have constantly said one thing, and done another. So 
> to your 'take it or leave it', I've 'leave' your demand.
> 
> In fact, any and all of your emails will now be kill-filed. I have no time 
> for habitual liars, whose emails are nothing but self-serving missives. As 
> such your emails are not even worth the storage space.
> 
> If anyone with a shred of competency, and credibility at PP-DE wishes to 
> enquire about the issues, They know how to contact me. But I do not answer 
> to you, no matter how important you *think* you are, or how many demands 
> you make, or whatever names you *claim* to represent. I've fallen for that 
> from you before, and will no longer make that mistake.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> 
> 
> On 12/19/2014 4:09 PM, Thomas Gaul wrote:
>> Dear Andrew!
> 
>> Take it or leave it.  I am acting on behalf of PP-DE.
> 
>> And if PP-DE asks through me, please answer. Here and now!
> 
>> Me being part of the board of PPI is a different matter (Roles issues). If 
>> it shows me as a member of the board in a way not being appropriate as a 
>> member of the board of PPI - so it is.  The Pirate Party of Germany is 
>> interested in your accusations and I asked on behalf of the Pirate Party! 
>> And afair I am one of the official representatives of PP-DE.
> 
>> Any answer you deliver is appropriate. That's one of the reasons I 
>> integrated an internal German ML. Please deliver your elaboration about 
>> the accusations. It is deemed to be public! 
> 
>> And aside from PP-DE - the accusation had been against the board of PPI. 
>> Of the more interest is there for PP-DE to receive the information and if 
>> necessary the board of PP-DE will see fit to act.
> 
>> And just to let you know, the ones responsible within the board of PP-DE 
>> are actively involved on this specific mailing list. 
> 
>> Please deliver the information! ASAP!
> 
>> Thank you very much for your help in advance!
> 
>> Thomas Gaul
> 
> 
>> internationaler Koordinator - international Coordinator Piratenpartei 
>> Deutschland - Pirate Party of Germany, Pflugstraße 9a, D-10115 Berlin, 
>> Germany
> 
>> Die Piratenpartei Deutschland wird gemeinschaftlich vertreten von 
>> Stefan Körner (Vorsitzender) Carsten Sawosch (Stellvertretender 
>> Vorsitzender) Stefan Bartels (Schatzmeister) Stepanie Schmiedke 
>> (Generalsekretärin) Kristos Thingilouthis (Politischer 
>> Geschäftsführer) Lothar Krauß (Stellvertretender Schatzmeister) Mark 
>> Huger (Stellvertretender Generalsekretär) Bernd Schreiner 
>> (Stellvertretender politischer Geschäftsführer) und Michael Ebner 
>> (Zweiter Stellvertretender Generalsekretär)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: pp-leaders.discussion 
>> [mailto:pp-leaders.discussion-bounces AT lists.pp-international.net] Im 
>> Auftrag von Andrew Norton
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 19. Dezember 2014 20:42
>> An: Thomas Gaul; pp-leaders.discussion AT lists.pp-international.net
>> Cc: 'internationale Koordination'
>> Betreff: Re: [pp-leaders.discussion] Fwd: [pp-leaders] CoA complaint: 
>> motions relating to affiliation fees
> 
>> On 12/19/2014 2:36 PM, Thomas Gaul wrote:
>>> Dear Andrew!
>>> You wrote concerning PPI:  "Currently, it is not. It is an organisation 
>>> that is fundamentally corrupt, inept, and devoid of purpose or 
>>> accountability."
>>> As this is massive. Could you please elaborate your accusations? In broad 
>>> and in details as well. I am asking this on behalf of the Pirate Party of 
>>> Germany.
>> Dear Thomas,
> 
>> Since you are one of those at the very center of the issue, I hardly think 
>> it's appropriate. By all means if the Pirate Party of Germany wants to 
>> know, then by all means have them contact me. Your enquiry would be a 
>> significant conflict of interest, no? A lot like a police department 
>> "investigating" the misconduct of its own officers.
> 
>> Andrew
> 
> 
>>> Best regards
>>> Thomas
>>> internationaler Koordinator - international Coordinator Piratenpartei 
>>> Deutschland - Pirate Party of Germany, Pflugstraße 9a, D-10115 
>>> Berlin, Germany
>>> Die Piratenpartei Deutschland wird gemeinschaftlich vertreten von 
>>> Stefan Körner (Vorsitzender) Carsten Sawosch (Stellvertretender
>>> Vorsitzender) Stefan Bartels (Schatzmeister) Stepanie Schmiedke
>>> (Generalsekretärin) Kristos Thingilouthis (Politischer
>>> Geschäftsführer) Lothar Krauß (Stellvertretender Schatzmeister) Mark 
>>> Huger (Stellvertretender Generalsekretär) Bernd Schreiner 
>>> (Stellvertretender politischer Geschäftsführer) und Michael Ebner 
>>> (Zweiter Stellvertretender Generalsekretär)
>>> On 12/19/2014 5:54 AM, Josef Ohlsson Collentine wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I can only see bad things coming from CoA dealing with it no matter 
>>>> what they decide... We all know PPI statutes are a complete mess so 
>>>> leaning on them as hard as has been done here is just abusing the 
>>>> current mess PPI is in. The complaint might definitely hold true but 
>>>> what is accomplished? Would encourage PPAU to withdraw this 
>>>> complaint for the greater good of PPI.
>>> Can you imagine what the press would say about Pirate Parties, if they 
>>> had turned around on, say, ACTA and said 'hey, everyone protesting about 
>>> ACTA, hush up, I can only see bad things coming from making a lot of 
>>> noise on it - we know it's a complete mess, and the complaint's probably 
>>> true, but what will be accomplished? We encourage people to withdraw 
>>> their complaints against ACTA for the greater good of the EU"
>>> They'd string you up!
>>> One of the fundamental principles of the Pirate movement is open 
>>> democratic methods, evidence-based principles, and accountability and 
>>> transparency. You are suggesting we (as a whole) abandon these 
>>> principles, 'for the greater good of PPI'. WHAT GREATER GOOD? To whose 
>>> benefit?
>>> For that matter, what 'good'? Name one good thing PPI has done in the 
>>> past 3 years? I don't know about you, Josef, but as an elected officer of 
>>> a PPI member (A Governor of PPUK), and officer relating to another (Vice 
>>> chair of USPP, which includes the Observer-member PPFlorida) it's my duty 
>>> to investigate if PPI is compatible with the basic ideals and 
>>> fundamentals of these parties.
>>> Currently, it is not. It is an organisation that is fundamentally 
>>> corrupt, inept, and devoid of purpose or accountability. I believe PPAU 
>>> has come to the same conclusions, and has given the PPI one last chance 
>>> to redeem itself by acting in the way it should.
>>> However, one thing really insulted me. "for the greater good of PPI". It 
>>> reminded me of the film Hot Fuzz. You know, where the 'cabal' at the 
>>> center did whatever they could to preserve the ideal they had at everyone 
>>> else's expense "for the greater good".
>>> Also the same thing Dick Cheney, and Rep. Peter "IRA supporter" King have 
>>> said over the last week about the CIA Torture, that it was "for the 
>>> greater good". If any phrase has ever underscored that something is 
>>> "wrong" (and they know it), it's that something is "for the greater 
>>> good", and has been used to justify pretty much every 'major bad thing', 
>>> EVER. Should probably qualify as Godwin-ing on its own.
>>> So, the question remains. Is PPI a 'pirate"  organisation, or will it 
>>> continue to act in direct defiance of the Pirate movement?
>>> Andrew
>>> Governor, PPUK
>>> Vice Chairman, USPP
>>> Vice Chairman, PPGa(US)
>>> (speaking as myself, and not as an official statement from those
>>> parties)
> 
> 
>>>> What is the real motive for bringing this up now? Causing more 
>>>> internal chaos within PPI? Avoiding PPAU fees?
>>>> Kindly,
>>>> Josef
>>>> *International Contact for PPSE*
>>>> Contact me for any questions/concerns or if you need to get hold of 
>>>> someone in Piratpartiet or internationally.
>>>> /Other contact:/
>>>> mail: international AT piratpartiet.se
>>>> <mailto:international AT piratpartiet.se>
>>>> Twitter: @collentine
>>>> Skype: josef.ohlsson.collentine (only important conversations)
>>>> Cel: +46 73 824 98 49 (text me, if urgent)
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: *Brendan Molloy* <brendan.molloy AT pirateparty.org.au
>>>> <mailto:brendan.molloy AT pirateparty.org.au>>
>>>> Date: Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 2:06 AM
>>>> Subject: [pp-leaders] CoA complaint: motions relating to affiliation 
>>>> fees
>>>> To: Court of Arbitration <coa AT pp-international.net 
>>>> <mailto:coa AT pp-international.net>>
>>>> Cc: "pp-leaders AT lists.pp-international.net
>>>> <mailto:pp-leaders AT lists.pp-international.net>"
>>>> <pp-leaders AT lists.pp-international.net
>>>> <mailto:pp-leaders AT lists.pp-international.net>>
>>>> Dear Court of Arbitration,
>>>> Please accept our following complaint for consideration.
>>>> An HTML version of the complaint is available here:
>>>> https://gist.github.com/bbqsrc/fc7a05121272a23804f1/730b5ae96e1912ea
>>>> 5
>>>> 2
>>>> bbb3697084e27cc0157a26
>>>> Please acknowledge receipt of this email as soon as possible.
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> ## Complaint
>>>> PPAU requests that the Court of Arbitration hears a challenge 
>>>> against motions relating to affiliation fees at the 2014 General 
>>>> Assembly, specifically due to recent minutes of the PPI Board 
>>>> indicating that they are likely to move ahead with attempts to 
>>>> acquire fees from members.
>>>> PPAU consents to abide by the decision of the Court of Arbitration.
>>>> ## Challenge
>>>> This challenge relates to CoA powers [XIVa(3)(a), (b), and 
>>>> (e)][XIVa], and relates to the functioning of the General Assembly and 
>>>> PPI Board.
>>>> ### Validity of affiliation fee-related motions
>>>> The minutes in question can be found here:
>>>> http://wiki.pp-international.net/Minutes_of_GA_2014
>>>> As there are no titles in the minutes, we cannot link to the 
>>>> relevant section.
>>>> Please search for the following to find it:
>>>>> delay or not 9.5 in favour, 12 opposed, 2 abstentions Result: we 
>>>>> discuss the hight of the fees now
>>>> As the minutes are a complete mess, we have attempted to decipher as 
>>>> best as possible what the actual proposals were to begin with, and 
>>>> what the conclusion is.
>>>> PPAU would like to note for posterity that these minutes are not of 
>>>> the quality expected of an international organisation and the 
>>>> members should seriously consider ensuring that the quality of the 
>>>> minutes is significantly improved in the future.
>>>> Based on our analysis we believe the events to be as follows:
>>>> * "Board MOP for Membership fees at PPI" begins
>>>> * Discussion occurs.
>>>> * A vote to delay voting and discussion does not carry.
>>>> * A vote on whether or not to discuss Gregory Engels' proposed
>>>>   HDI-based fees or a "1/10 proposal", which seems to mean 10% of the
>>>>   original HDI-based proposal.
>>>> * That vote results in a discussion of the 1/10 proposal.
>>>> * A motion by PPEE that parties with less than 500 members will choose
>>>>   their own fees, seems to have carried but is not noted in the
>>>>   minutes.
>>>> * A motion to have voluntary fees for all seem to not carry, not noted.
>>>> * A motion whether fees are wanted at all, based on the tenuous phrase
>>>>   in brackets "based on what we decided for so far" carries with 55.8%
>>>>   support (not including abstentions).
>>>> * The minutes then assert that what had been agreed to is as follows:
>>>>> There will be membership fees, 1/10th of the original proposal, 
>>>>> parties with less than 500 members can pay as much as they want 
>>>>> (but a minimum of more than 0€), there are no penalties for not 
>>>>> paying, observer membership is also not associated with any costs, 
>>>>> the first fees are due for the next financial year (which begins 
>>>>> tomorrow)
>>>> PPAU fails to see how such a result could be derived as:
>>>> * No conclusive vote as to the mechanism for determining the fees was
>>>>   carried, specifically no motion carried that meets the requirements
>>>>   of [XVI(1) or (2)][XVI];
>>>> * A feelings-based motion on whether fees are wanted carries, but it
>>>>   is a tenuous, meaningless motion, that is also not valid as per the
>>>>   statutes due to [XI(2)][XI], which stipulates that annual affiliation
>>>>   fee motions must meet a two-thirds threshold;
>>>> * PPEE's motion does not specify that the fees must be greater than 0,
>>>>   and therefore the assertion is again false;
>>>> * Notwithstanding the above, due to no fee as per [XVI(1)][XVI] being
>>>>   determined, PPEE's motion is therefore irrelevant for the time 
>>>> being;
>>>> * "No penalties" was not agreed to nor discussed, and is also false due
>>>>   to [XI(5)][XI], which stipulates that failure to pay fees can result
>>>>   in voting rights being suspended;
>>>> * No discussion or vote was taken regarding fees for observer members,
>>>>   and therefore the tenuous assertion is without purpose or merit as
>>>>   it bears no relevance to the discussion at hand; and
>>>> * No vote affirming the complex assertion being questioned here is
>>>>   recorded within the minutes.
>>>> #### Relevant statutes:
>>>>> XI Voting
>>>>> [~snip~]
>>>>> (2) Decisions concerning the admission of new Members (section III.
>>>>> paragraph 4), the exclusion of Members (section VII, paragraph 2), 
>>>>> the determination of the annual affiliation fee (section XVI, 
>>>>> paragraph 1) and the amendment of this[sic] Statutes (section XX), 
>>>>> shall be passed by a two thirds majority of the votes cast.
>>>>> [~snip~]
>>>>> XV. Funding
>>>>> Pirate Parties International expenditure shall be covered by:
>>>>> a) affiliation fees from the Ordinary Members parties and those 
>>>>> with Observer status,
>>>>> [~snip~]
>>>>> XVI. Affiliation Fees
>>>>> (1) The amount of the fee is determined annually by the General 
>>>>> Assembly.
>>>>> (2) The affiliation fees and contributions shall be fixed in 
>>>>> relation to the finances and membership of parties.
>>>> [XI(2)][XI] clearly stipulates that motions relating to 
>>>> [XVI(1)][XVI] must carry with a two-thirds majority of votes cast.
>>>> [XV(a)][XV] implies that observer members should be included in any 
>>>> calculation of affiliation fees in [XVI][XVI].
>>>> [XVI][XVI] as a whole seems to imply that (1) should be a fixed 
>>>> number, and that (2) should apply a formula to that number 
>>>> consistently in relation to size and finances of a party, without 
>>>> exception.
>>>> ### Suitability of PPI board accepting affiliation fees at this time
>>>> Recent minutes of the PPI board state that the board intends to soon 
>>>> begin requesting membership fees, but these very same minutes put 
>>>> into question whether or not the banking situation has been resolved 
>>>> sufficiently to begin taking large amounts of money from around the 
>>>> world.
>>>> Relevant URLs:
>>>> *
>>>> http://wiki.pp-international.net/PPI_Minutes_2014-11-29#3_Short_Repo
>>>> r
>>>> t
>>>> s
>>>> *
>>>> http://wiki.pp-international.net/PPI_Minutes_2014-12-09#3_Short_Repo
>>>> r
>>>> t
>>>> s
>>>> *
>>>> http://wiki.pp-international.net/PPI_Minutes_2014-12-09#7_Financial_
>>>> S
>>>> i
>>>> tuation
>>>> *
>>>> http://wiki.pp-international.net/PPI_Minutes_2014-12-09#8_AOB_.28bei
>>>> n
>>>> g
>>>> _urgent.29
>>>> #### Relevant Statutes:
>>>>> XVII. Treasurer
>>>>> [~snip~]
>>>>> (3) The Board is responsible for the sound financial management of 
>>>>> Pirate Parties International.
>>>> [XVII][XVII] is an odd place to put a requirement of the PPI board 
>>>> to be sure, but it is a requirement of the statutes that the board 
>>>> soundly manages the finances of PPI, and this has been put into question.
>>>> ## Requests
>>>> We request that the Court of Arbitration does the following:
>>>> 1. Immediately introduces an injunction against the PPI board regarding
>>>>    requesting or accepting membership fees until this case is
>>>>    concluded, as per the powers of [XIVa(1) and (3)(a)][XIVa]; 2. 
>>>> Makes a determination that "fixed in relation to the finances and
>>>>    membership of parties" should be interpreted to mean a consistently
>>>>    applied formula for determining fees based on that criteria, without
>>>>    exception;
>>>> 3. Makes a determination that the General Assembly did not approve any
>>>>    affiliation fee that would meet the requirements of [XVI(1)][XVI],
>>>>    either due to lack of a motion meeting those requirements, or a
>>>>    motion failing to carry due to the requirements of [XI(2)][XI]; 4. 
>>>> Makes a determination that motions relating to affiliation fees must
>>>>    meet all of the requirements of [XI(2)][XI],
>>>>    [XVI(1) and XVI(2)][XVI];
>>>> 5. Makes a determination as to whether or not [XVI][XVI] applies to
>>>>    observer members, as [XV(a)][XV] seems to imply; 6. Makes a 
>>>> determination as to whether or not the current PPI board is
>>>>    meeting the requirements of [XVII(3)][XVII], which is necessary for
>>>>    the purpose of knowing whether it is safe to send affiliation fees
>>>>    to the PPI board. Should the board be found to not be meeting these
>>>>    requirements, they should be required to apply to the CoA for a
>>>>    determination on whether they meet [XVII(3)][XVII] prior to
>>>>    requesting any affiliation fees in the future, and; 7. Makes a 
>>>> determination that any attempt by the PPI board to accrue
>>>>    affiliation fees to be without authority or basis until a future
>>>>    General Assembly resolves otherwise.
>>>> [XI]: http://wiki.pp-international.net/Statutes#XI._Voting
>>>> [XIVa]: 
>>>> http://wiki.pp-international.net/Statutes#XIVa._Court_of_Arbitration
>>>> [XV]: http://wiki.pp-international.net/Statutes#XV._Funding
>>>> [XVI]: 
>>>> http://wiki.pp-international.net/Statutes#XVI._Affiliation_Fees
>>>> [XVII]: http://wiki.pp-international.net/Statutes#XVII._Treasurer
> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> pp-leaders mailing list
>>>> pp-leaders AT lists.pp-international.net
>>>> <mailto:pp-leaders AT lists.pp-international.net>
>>>> http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-leaders
> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> pp-leaders.discussion AT lists.pp-international.net
>>>> http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-leaders.discussion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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-- 
Regards,

Brendan Molloy
President
Pirate Party Australia

M: +61 449 617 246
W: http://www.pirateparty.org.au
E: brendan.molloy AT pirateparty.org.au
T: @piecritic
PGP: 5721 8A69 1828 21E6

--
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