Re: [Ag Meinungsfindungstool] mud games for kids (Henri Nathanson)

[Henri Nathanson <henri.nathanson AT gmail.com>]

Hi Thomas.
Some words regarding democracy and decision systems first. So does mankind not yet have an ideal understanding of democracy yet. And of course no implementations of it, too. The system in use being closest is still the parlamentary-representative democracy with Liquidfeedback having some small progression with continuos voting. So please dont tell me about decision systems. What you know until now is all bullshit. We will drop parliaments soon. We will even drop political parties. And I advice you to not rely on the status quo as it will change. Alltogether with your discussion systems you try to tweak some GUI elements. Whereas we need a major OS update. I doubt you do anything useful searching a common ground on 70+ mainly false systems. And dont you think that anything of your work has much to do with democracy. If you want to deal with democracy then see my last email. The information contained therein is a billion times more worth than all your discussion stuff. Thats not kids mud games.
Henri

Am 06.07.2014 23:17 schrieb <allusion AT gmx.de>:

Hi Henri,

> Thanx for feeding the Troll.

Pardon ?

> I told you its nonsense to go for opinion or discussion systems before
> you got the decision making right.

As far as I know there is no lack of decision making tools. You can even
find some of them already in use (e.g. Adhocracy, Liquid Feedback, etc.).
The thing is that we (by intention !) have focussed on discussion tools
because the way that discussions are held today (forums, email, chat, etc.)
is like fighting a well equipped army using stones. A second thing about
this is that I (and the majority of this group) are FED UP (!!!!) having
to read thousands and thousands of pages in forums each day due to long
posts of at least some users which contain 0.1% of information and 99.9%
of nothingness.
To avoid this waste of time and have huge and effective discussions
in the future we want to make much more sophisticated discussion tools
and your argumentation obviously didn't convince anyone. If you want to push
decision systems you can ask Marc and Slash to establish a contact between
you and groups that do invest time in this topic.
Maybe it would be a good idea to share ressources in that field, too. However,
your argumentation was not strong enough to make us change the way we are
contributing to democracy and that's what you should learn to accept, rather
than to waste time and to annoy anyone. You can do much better in a group
that focusses on decisions. Working together is highly appreciated but we
have our own agenda.

> "Democracy is not only given naturally. It is free and great ans superb."

What kind of democracy do you mean ? Do you mean this bunch of corrupt
people sitting in OUR parlament making politics AGAINST US ? What do you
mean by "naturally given" ? Parlamentary democracy is one way to solve
problems. A dictatorship is another one and a grassroot democracy would
even be quite different to both of them.

> There is consensus within groups and competition between them.

How is there a consensus within a big group (like the Social Democrat
Party) without proper discussion.  This can only be done through dictatorship
or other forms of dominance. Proper discussion means are vital for groups
who claim to be democratic and for people to express their ideas.

> Just drop what you did.

No. Not unless you really convinced us and that is not the case so far.


Bye DerThomas

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